tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7912730.post590387958617809003..comments2024-01-06T00:28:45.062+08:00Comments on Bibliobibuli: Whose Desk?bibliobibulihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16456636355933524132noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7912730.post-21444232682084461362007-02-15T11:22:00.000+08:002007-02-15T11:22:00.000+08:00Ruhayat - I also bought one copy of Elarti.Animah ...Ruhayat - I also bought one copy of Elarti.<BR/><BR/>Animah - Apek is actually Ah Pek, which means Uncle in Hokkien. It's not derogatory.Chethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10743260318771644192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7912730.post-11789451202164166202007-02-15T08:56:00.000+08:002007-02-15T08:56:00.000+08:00Someone should point Ms. Bainbridge to this discus...Someone should point Ms. Bainbridge to this discussion! And she's say, after reading all of it, "Sod PC!" :-)Poppadumdumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11763910123949254981noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7912730.post-73334134384289592382007-02-14T21:01:00.000+08:002007-02-14T21:01:00.000+08:00ytsl - urmh...Touché!ytsl - urmh...Touché!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7912730.post-42135709192035217332007-02-14T02:47:00.000+08:002007-02-14T02:47:00.000+08:00Animah the Barred: I've always called elderly Chin...Animah the Barred: I've always called elderly Chinese men whom I am familiar with "Apek". It's a term of endearment to me, a mark of respect. I don't think any of them have been offended.<BR/><BR/>And I used to call young Indian boys "thambi". Since I don't use it patronisingly, I never thought there was anything wrong with it. These days, though, I've been told not to use it anymore. But the South Indian waiters at my regular mamak restaurant don't seem to mind.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7912730.post-40225725981423213962007-02-14T02:37:00.000+08:002007-02-14T02:37:00.000+08:00Understood. But... The academics might know there ...Understood. But... <BR/><BR/>The academics might know there is/should be a distinction, but the daily news tells us that the rest of the world don't. <BR/><BR/>So these days we have people getting persecuted or killed simply because they are "Jewish" or "Arab" or "Tutsi", despite the fact that the victims may actually be from different tribes with totally different worldviews than the ones that have been deemed dangerous to the perpetrators.<BR/><BR/>In the history of Medinah during the time of Prophet Muhammad, one of the Jewish tribes that settled in that city betrayed the Muslims to their enemies in Mecca. The Muslims waged war against that tribe, and just that particular tribe. If in those days they had been known only by their ethnic grouping "Jew", the entire Jewish population in Medinah would have been attacked and a great injustice would have taken place.<BR/><BR/>I celebrate the diversity of cultures. Each one should be recognised on their own terms. That's why I have a reservation against the Western-style method of uniformising everything in order to study them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7912730.post-20218625881518890972007-02-14T00:30:00.000+08:002007-02-14T00:30:00.000+08:00To ruhayat --"To me the term "ethnic group" is sim...To ruhayat --<BR/><BR/>"To me the term "ethnic group" is simply too diverse and inelegant, as the example with my cousin shows."<BR/><BR/>I, OTOH, think that its flexibility (I think this is what you meant with the "too diverse" pronouncement) is one of the main attractions of ethnicity as a term.<BR/><BR/>To amaruhizat --<BR/><BR/>"So by that logic, I am supposed to be offended if someone is refering to me as "Malaysiaman" instead of “Malayman”?"<BR/><BR/>What I was and am trying to say is that the term "Chinaman" has historical baggage that the term "Chinese" (or, if you would like it, "Malayman") doesn't have.<BR/><BR/>And you may not get me or ever get me. So instead of continuing the discussion in my own words, I'll refer you to the following four links:-<BR/><BR/>http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/r/roybean249997.html<BR/><BR/>http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Chinaman<BR/><BR/>http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Chinaman<BR/><BR/>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinaman<BR/><BR/>In summary: suffice to say that I am far from the only person who thinks that the term "Chinaman" has offensive connotations.<BR/><BR/>"So, if Malaysiaman or Malayman is offensive, what will it be then?"<BR/><BR/>These may not be offensive but surely you would agree that they sound linguistically awkward? And this especially since accepted/acceptable alternatives to them already exist in the form of -- the gender neutral to boot! -- Malaysian and Malay!YTSLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09930487923185001591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7912730.post-28674711919991491042007-02-13T23:24:00.000+08:002007-02-13T23:24:00.000+08:00Not long after I moved into my new house last year...Not long after I moved into my new house last year, I caught my 3 year old calling out to the old man next door, "Apek". Shocked, I corrected my daughter and lectured my maid telling her that it was derogatory. My maid said she didn't realise and agreed to address him as "uncle" in future.<BR/><BR/>The next day, my daughter called out "Uncle". He turned round and said to her "Panggil Apek lah. Apa Uncle, uncle ni?"<BR/><BR/>Now we all call him Apek. It's what he wants. He is quite a character - good subject for a book - I will drop hints to the writer in residence.<BR/><BR/>But the point is that what may be derogatory to some, may not be to others. It's about being sensitive and respecting others.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7912730.post-7033823786514540892007-02-13T21:55:00.001+08:002007-02-13T21:55:00.001+08:00I jumped on Nic and sold three copies for him, or ...I jumped on Nic and sold three copies for him, or rather you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7912730.post-7044432778057477362007-02-13T21:55:00.000+08:002007-02-13T21:55:00.000+08:00To YTSL --"Well, it's not like Bainbridge couldn't...To YTSL --<BR/><BR/>"Well, it's not like Bainbridge couldn't have written "Chinese man"..."<BR/><BR/>So by that logic, I am supposed to be offended if someone is refering to me as "Malaysiaman" instead of “Malayman”?<BR/><BR/>I still don’t get you.<BR/><BR/>When people say to me – You are nothing close of a Malay (which often than not, was uttered by another Malay) - that would be offending...Wait…if someone said that to me, I should be flattered! (And yes, I am referring to the "Malay" that points to the stereotypical statement of a typical melayu(s), which Mr. X have stated some of the qualities above.) <BR/><BR/>So, if Malaysiaman or Malayman is offensive, what will it be then? "That sawo-matang-skinned, flat-nosed, next to the Singapore country-East Asian?" fl Now that sounds offensive, or displaying the lack of basic geography knowledge of the person who said it.<BR/><BR/>I don't see the rationale, the reason why it would be offensive or discriminating to be referred to my origin - be it ethnic/tribe/race/clan. While it is the truth?<BR/><BR/>I am born a malay, raised as a malay, I do have the stereotype persona of a malay (lazy, no vision, procrastinator, short sighted, short), then why would I be offended if someone call me a malay?<BR/><BR/>Unless I no longer want to retain any relationship with my racial identity, ashamed perhaps, of my own heritage. <BR/><BR/>And who set these standards of labelling this person as ethnic or tribe or race as being offensive anyway? I am putting the dollar on the scholars, so they will have a topic to write for their thesis.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7912730.post-35165858178325087342007-02-13T20:19:00.000+08:002007-02-13T20:19:00.000+08:00By the way, did we manage to sell any copies of El...By the way, did we manage to sell any copies of Elarti at the event at all? (By "we" of course I mean you and Nic... much thanks!). Been meaning to ask but I've been a bit preoccupied lately.<BR/><BR/>With work, before you ask.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7912730.post-59195633739884592442007-02-13T19:59:00.000+08:002007-02-13T19:59:00.000+08:00i'm procastinating too ... awful innnitgreat story...i'm procastinating too ... awful innnit<BR/><BR/>great story, really made me laughbibliobibulihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16456636355933524132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7912730.post-81944879915884277282007-02-13T19:12:00.000+08:002007-02-13T19:12:00.000+08:00Heh. It also reminds me of that event when an old ...Heh. It also reminds me of that event when an old aboriginal leader from Australia hopped onto a flight to the UK, went to Greenwich and popped an Aboriginal flag into the grassy mound, declaring, "I claim this land in the name of the Aborigines."<BR/><BR/>The British authroities didn't find the irony amusing, but my cultural studies group did. It was too rich for words.<BR/><BR/>I really should be working on my scriptwriting now but work has a habit of procrastinating, donnit.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7912730.post-11516947833185204802007-02-13T18:53:00.000+08:002007-02-13T18:53:00.000+08:00Sharon, hehe, actually, since we can assume there ...Sharon, hehe, actually, since we can assume there are a lot of social scientists from Africa also, we can also conclude that they too would prefer the new term to avoid the prejudices of the old.<BR/><BR/>This reminds me of Achebe's novels, where the older generation protagonists are proud of their heritage and are puzzled - if not downright outraged - when the newer ones, having sampled "civilisation" and "modernity", rejected th old terms they used to be defined with.<BR/><BR/>So no "tribe" for Okonkwo, Jr, thank you very much. In fact, they came to use and view the old world concepts the way some of my Chinese friends today use the term "Chinaman" or even "Cina apek".<BR/><BR/>I find all this most fascinatng.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7912730.post-62956560856221131082007-02-13T18:47:00.000+08:002007-02-13T18:47:00.000+08:00Let's face it - whatever I say here won't have a d...Let's face it - whatever I say here won't have a dent in the world other than to make for entertaining discussion, if that. I doubt the academic world is suddenly going to decide not to use "ethnic group", since the term has been so well defined and accepted for common usage.<BR/><BR/>And I'm sure the term has been debated and discussed in endless academic forums and then further refined before it caught on. So I am indulging in this as purely idle entertainment.<BR/><BR/>To me the term "ethnic group" is simply too diverse and inelegant, as the example with my cousin shows. If she were to refer to herself as "Malay", which Malay is she referring to? Negri Sembilan Malay? Pahang Malay? Kedahan?<BR/><BR/>If she were to refer herself as "Chinese-Malay", how is she Chinese apart from her genes? And would she then belong in the general "Chinese-Malay" construct meaning she shares similarities with others who call themselves "Chinese-Malay"?<BR/><BR/>The Malays used to refer to themselves as "clans". This is not just between bigger clans - eg, Peninsula Malay clans vs Bugis clans vs Javanese clans. Today all these clans are described as one: "Malay", but once upon a time those who caled themselves Malays viewed these other clans as foreign, probably the way today's Malays view the Chinese and Indians.<BR/><BR/>In Pahang itself there are hundreds of clans. For the sake of simplicity, I suppose, these clans - with their own vocabulary and dialects etc - were defined by their geographic origins. Thus, the clans are defined by "district", eg you have the Jerantut clan, the Lipis clan, etc.<BR/><BR/>But then, within the "districts" themselves, there could again be many other sub-clans, if you like. In Lipis, the clans used to be distnct enough that we could tell where that person came from just by their manner of speaking, standing or walking. And when I was growing up it was still common to hear old folks say, "He is not of us."<BR/><BR/>using that single word, "clan", allows us in those days to quickly understand who such and such a person or stranger is, enabled us to anticipate his/her behaviour, and allowed us to "know" how to react to him/her.<BR/><BR/>Ie, I can simply say, "Oh, he's from the Ulu Cheka clan", and that would have been enough.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7912730.post-54483173008537173002007-02-13T18:25:00.000+08:002007-02-13T18:25:00.000+08:00i can only speak of my bit of nigeria, mr xi admir...i can only speak of my bit of nigeria, mr x<BR/><BR/>i admire 'lazy' mr x. 'tis an art form i would love to emulatebibliobibulihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16456636355933524132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7912730.post-84948020503816769822007-02-13T18:22:00.000+08:002007-02-13T18:22:00.000+08:00Haha. Now I know why my grandmother used to nag me...Haha. Now I know why my grandmother used to nag me so much about the folly of putting my foot in my mouth.<BR/><BR/>Anyway. My main objection is basically to cultural arrogance. Don't have much time, so I shall just post this for now: <BR/><BR/>if I were an African I would take back the old term that my culture is used to using, "tribe", and use it in the same way that blacks in America use "nigger". Since my tribe has been using "tribe" for generations, it would actually mean something to me, whereas this new-fangled thing called "ethnic group" that these foreign people are saying is good for me... what's that?<BR/><BR/>The way I see it, the negative connotations that have been attached to "tribe" and "nigger" or "negro" was done not by the people themselves, but by others outside their community. <BR/><BR/>Did anyone bother to ask the Africans themselves whether they would mind if they were referred to as a "tribe" instead of "ethnic group"? As Sharon's experience relates above, only the academic outsider protested, while the natives were quite happy to keep using the word "tribe" - naturally, since they never assigned a negative meaning to it the way the academic world did.<BR/><BR/>This lingustic "arrogance", I argue, is typical of "modernity". If I were a native, I would resent being labelled by someone from outside.<BR/><BR/>Eg, "Lazy Malay", if applied by someone external, I would construe as pejorative. But if it's the Malays themselves who go around saying that, yeah, Malays are indeed a lazy bunch, then I'd say it's a characteristic that they acknowledge as being part of their culture.<BR/><BR/>And like the guy above, I would take back "Lazy Malay" and be proud to claim myself as one because it just shows that we are a people who are wise enough to live with our environment rather than against it. (The suggestion being that the weather has a significant role in forming of cultural attitudes, in time-keeping and time management for example).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7912730.post-91973780870566772132007-02-13T16:57:00.000+08:002007-02-13T16:57:00.000+08:00i mean ... the brain power that visits this blog. ...i mean ... the brain power that visits this blog. staggering!!bibliobibulihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16456636355933524132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7912730.post-15269637570591263782007-02-13T16:56:00.000+08:002007-02-13T16:56:00.000+08:00i fink you jus' won ystlformidable!i fink you jus' won ystl<BR/><BR/>formidable!bibliobibulihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16456636355933524132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7912730.post-40133352479203496932007-02-13T12:10:00.000+08:002007-02-13T12:10:00.000+08:00Hi once again Sharon --Actually, I knew/know that ...Hi once again Sharon --<BR/><BR/>Actually, I knew/know that Nigeria has three main African groups (Yoruba, Hausa and Ibo, right?). And thinking some more about the (ethnic) politics, etc. of Nigeria, I can see how it came to be that none of these groups' languages can be used as a national language...<BR/><BR/>To ruhayat x --<BR/><BR/>"By the way, if I'm African I'd probably prefer using the term "tribe" rather than "ethnic group". Tribe connotes a sense of belonging, which is the whole point of defining yourself. Ethnic group... what's that?"<BR/><BR/>Why can't ethnic group connote a sense of belonging? After all, among other things, ethnicity has been defined/described -- in this case by Charles F. Keyes, an anthropologist who specializes in the study of ethnicity -- as possessing both cultural as well as social dimensions, "being a cultural construal of descent" and "is a form of kinship reckoning" (cf. Charles F. Keyes, ed., "Ethnic Change". University of Washington Press, 1981). <BR/><BR/>"...ethnic group refers mainly to surface appearance."<BR/><BR/>Sorry, but I have to ask: Where did you get that idea from?!<BR/><BR/>"And besides, "ethnic group" wouldn't be able to account for my cousin, who is a Chinese adopted by my Malay uncle and aunt from birth. Or the Tamil one adopted by another close relative. Nor, I'd say, the mixed parentage children whom the Ministry of Information seems to have singled out as a threat to the Malay good."<BR/><BR/>Yes, it would! E.g., see the above quote re ethnicity being "a cultural construal of descent". Therefore, if your cousin chooses to, (s)he can self-identify as Malay. Or Chinese-Malay. Or Malay-Chinese. Or, since one doesn't have to have just one identity, Malay *and* Chinese. Etc.<BR/><BR/>And to amaruhizat --<BR/><BR/>"Two, how else is she going to adress a perfect stranger? I AM a malay man."<BR/><BR/>Well, it's not like Bainbridge couldn't have written "Chinese man"... ;SYTSLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09930487923185001591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7912730.post-25486403200318957892007-02-12T23:30:00.000+08:002007-02-12T23:30:00.000+08:00thanks elviza. sorry that you feel discouraged .....thanks elviza. sorry that you feel discouraged ... give that inner critic a bit boot up the backsidebibliobibulihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16456636355933524132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7912730.post-55421633757446586432007-02-12T13:52:00.000+08:002007-02-12T13:52:00.000+08:00Dear Sharon, I am your ardent fan. I have been rea...Dear Sharon, <BR/><BR/>I am your ardent fan. I have been reading your blog for a year now. Like you, I am also drunk on books. Currently reading "the Reluctant Politician". I also read your recent features and columns in the Quill magazine, I must say that they are very insightful. <BR/><BR/>I am compelled to leave a comment about your post today. The space you featured is to die for. I have been longing to have this kind of writing space to indulge my dream to be a writer. Alas, I live in a small confined space called an apartment. Sigh. <BR/><BR/>Be that as it may, even if I do have the space of my dream, it does not mean that I will write my master piece anytime soon. Feeling discouraged at the moment.<BR/><BR/>Keep up the good job Sharon. Hope to see you soon. <BR/><BR/>Justice to Rocky Bru<BR/><BR/>Elviza Michele <BR/>Advocate & Solicitor <BR/>Kuala LumpurElviza Michelehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02856302470721763257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7912730.post-49773168430088290102007-02-12T13:40:00.000+08:002007-02-12T13:40:00.000+08:00SB - beautiful! have been doodling on a notepad, m...SB - beautiful! have been doodling on a notepad, my future study... great post!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7912730.post-75107393666929672252007-02-12T01:53:00.000+08:002007-02-12T01:53:00.000+08:00Wow, now that's quite an interesting albeit lenght...Wow, now that's quite an interesting albeit lenghty elaboration, how typical of a melayu, heh heh heh - ampun.<BR/><BR/>IMHO I wouldn't be offended if Beryl Bainbridge said "I got the typewriter in 1958 from a Malayman". <BR/><BR/>As for one thing, should it be an insult, I wouldn't bleed as much if its done by someone famous (try being insulted by a homeless hobo for being broke, now that's a double slap, and I got that last week when I said I didn't have money to spare). <BR/><BR/>Two, how else is she going to adress a perfect stranger? I AM a malay man. <BR/><BR/>Although the line - "You can't get them mended anymore so I have to be very careful with it." - got me wondering if she wasn't talking about the typewriter at all. haha.<BR/><BR/>Speaking of google, yeah I did suspect they were up to something fishy, suddenly I couldn't log into my blogger account. Ahh google schmoogle.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7912730.post-53008786262141885942007-02-11T23:50:00.000+08:002007-02-11T23:50:00.000+08:00Hmmmm. Now THIS is interesting... it seems that th...Hmmmm. Now THIS is interesting... it seems that the googlegod will not allow suicide in its universe. You can lop off your hands, head or whatever, but once created you just cannot extinguish your Self from its universe.<BR/><BR/>Ooo. That should keep me preoccupied for the next couple of days.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7912730.post-14084512570787326752007-02-11T23:37:00.000+08:002007-02-11T23:37:00.000+08:00Animah: and I thought that was already so obvious....Animah: and I thought that was already so obvious.<BR/><BR/>Bloody heck. I'm terminating all my non-shared Blogger blogs effective tonight. Google is forcing me to sign up for a Google account, and since I passionately disagree with the Google philosophy, I suppose one of us has to yield.<BR/><BR/>Goodbye, cruel blog world.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com